I wish there was a way to avoid using incense during rituals or summoning. Today I searched to find a good incense but between the available even the most expensive incense sticks between those seemed to be impure and smelled like soap to me. I had this incense problem for a while and just can't find anything good. And I can't do online shopping. (Literally can't, I can't transfer money internationally)
Can I not use incenses?
- Thread starter Anya1
- Start date
wotan namah
Member
You can use essential oils if you like scents and a diffuser. I like several scents of it. Have the diffuser ready when you do the ritual. It creates a nice scent none of them smell like soap but I don't like some of the scents that well like lemongrass. So look for something good.
I.Am.Radiant
Member
Sometimes I use ginger
spray
Khem Nefermed
Active member
You don't need incense, or any props.
It's nice for the ceremonial aspect of things, and can make you more involved in the process, but it's not required.
It's nice for the ceremonial aspect of things, and can make you more involved in the process, but it's not required.
Nothing wrong with you, and nothing wrong with ‘incense’, incense is not incense sticks,
You have a refined taste, those incense sticks all smell cheap,
Try the rock things, like Frankincense etc.. go to a shop that sells those kind of stuff, ask someone about where you can find those shops normally you can find them,
If you cannot then its ok, no need.
Also, You can always come up with ideas to better the environment where you do the summonings and rituals, does not have to be expensive, you can do beautiful things easily. If you have no idea, just focus on your practices, with time you will get ideas.
Believe it or not, i once put 3 peanuts on table, as an offering. They loved it. I am not doing this everytime, it was spontaneous. With all my heart in the peanuts. Do not necessarily do the same, but if you get an idea, consider it with a good heart.
The following is not about you, but more about someone who is dismissing things and overlooking them just because of laziness or just because the Gods do respond, so why bother better the environment etc ?
Its not only ´ nice ‘, and Its not only ‘ceremonial’ and It is not only about us ‘being more involved in the process’,
it is also about the Gods, the Gods literally love those actions. Its not ‘CeRemOniaL’, like if its related to only the initiate liking to see good setup,
I truly strongly believe the more one advances the more he should refine things [ by being more formal ] instead of overlook them just because they are not required,
i am also 99% sure through intuition that what the Gods want exceeds what they may ask for. If the Gods accept a minimum does not mean one should not strive for more.
Accepting the bare minimum is sign of their nobility and greatness, but they indeed would love better but do not necessarily ask for it.
And when one overlook formality just because the Gods do respond, the Gods see that.
And this leads to entitlement, thinking one is too advanced he needs nothing just his mind and calling on Gods, while in fact every work with the Gods include element of grace.
Its not only ´ nice ‘, and Its not only ‘ceremonial’ and It is not only about us ‘being more involved in the process’,
it is also about the Gods, the Gods literally love those actions. Its not ‘CeRemOniaL’, like if its related to only the initiate liking to see good setup,
I truly strongly believe the more one advances the more he should refine things [ by being more formal ] instead of overlook them just because they are not required,
i am also 99% sure through intuition that what the Gods want exceeds what they may ask for. If the Gods accept a minimum does not mean one should not strive for more.
Accepting the bare minimum is sign of their nobility and greatness, but they indeed would love better but do not necessarily ask for it.
And when one overlook formality just because the Gods do respond, the Gods see that.
And this leads to entitlement, thinking one is too advanced he needs nothing just his mind and calling on Gods, while in fact every work with the Gods include element of grace.
Khem Nefermed
Active member
Gods care about our heart, more than material things. The two are connected, yes, someone can show what's in their heart through material offerings and a serious approach to props.
But again, this will be different for everyone. Someone might have an intricate, gigantic altar, while someone might choose not to have that, and the first is not necessarily more dedicated than the latter just because of that alone.
"Not necessary" also doesn't mean not valuable, or not important. If you feel like you should express your devotion and involve the Gods in your life through altars, incense, and other ceremonial (that's just what they are) elements, that is a very good thing to do and you will be blessed for it.
What the Gods want is not necessarily offerings. They do not lack anything, by definition. What they want is our connection to them, our yearning for them, our union with them.
"Neither by the scriptures, nor by asceticism, nor by gifts, nor by sacrifices can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. But by undivided devotion alone can I truly be known, seen, and entered into."
- Bhagavad Gita 11
wotan namah
Member
Well I think from my personal experience I think the Gods like certain formalities or things done a certain way and also some props enhance or make easier so far as raising energy certain rituals (example I actually used Rose oil and rose quartz in a love spell it made the energy more pure and powerful from what I could feel just one example) but I also think if someone does not have access to something or can't use it for some reason they don't hold it against us they know what's in the heart.
You do not understand the Gods. Literally.
And its not good that after all clergy sermons you are saying : Gods are great => Gods do not need offering.
You really do not understand the Gods.
With same logic : Gods are great, why the Gods not just simply manifest physically and exercise their will?
You really do not understand the depth of the matter.
Disclaimer : following can be wrong and has nothing to do with ToZ, those are just my personal opinions, i am new member , i by consequence carry many impurities and false understandings, some of them may be included in this message, so i am open for correction. English is my 3rd or even 4th language so there may be mistakes due the translation of thoughts.
For all the good things in whats below i give the credit to God Zeus and all the Gods
and for the bad things and shortcomings i take credit.
the following in an offering to Gods, considering it may encourage Zevists to take formality more seriously and approach the Gods with more reverence.
The following is not fully about you even when i use the word ´you ´, its just way of talking, and i have to use your reply, to go in depth in the subject, because i believe the Gods do Great things for us,
and then many start thanking them by removing formality and believing its all about the mind, and taking the Gods grace for granted, attributing results and success to ego,
May the following, convince readers, to take formality more seriously, and treat the Gods with more reverence, this is an act of acknowledgment of their Highness. Thus of itself an act of devotion and worship.
You do spiritual intellectual bypassing, you cite something, tell is true, and then add a ´but’ that undermines the previous point, that ´you ´ stated like if it is obvious, this undermines the thing in indirect way.
You need to make a difference between theory, philosophy, understanding, experience, relative reality, reality, supreme reality, and more.
The Gods are complex, and giving them a positive attribute does not bind them to the action expected of that attribute, this you need to grasp,
For example, i cannot say: The Gods are Generous and Powerful, i pray for X amount of money to be sitting in my bank tomorow,
If it does not happen you will tell me you need to work,
But i thought the Gods are Powerful? And generous? And no one in the world exceed them in power. So ?
Then you will start telling me : no but you need to know this and this, and you will start adding layers to the concept, you will not stop at the simplistic view you are talking from now, ´oh but the Gods are great.’
Because reality is complex, one side of the matter is not enough,
The thing is, you should keep the complex reality and their transcendent nature both in your mind,
At all times, not only when the doctrine in challenged, thus you are forced to add layers to the matter.
[Gods care about our heart, more than material things.]
All the action we do, to please the Gods, is material. Everyday, there is action to be done , Your phrase is what is called in arabic:
حق اريد به باطل
It means something true, but is misleading.
( i am Pushing members to do thing for Gods and you say true heart matters more, this literally sabotages my idea, so its true but the use makes it false and its also completely false from a higher perspective , explained in this message]
It reads like if , LeTs HaVe GoOD HeaRts, this is new age things, and Jesus mentality.
The Gods do not value ´Good hearts’ over ´material actions’ in the literal sense,
Those are two different matters, judged separately if you want to look at it from High consciousness,
On top of this, the two are interconnected,
To have a good heart is to be materially involved.
And to be materially involved is to have a good heart,
This is the supreme understanding,
When parents do many things for their children, and in the same time love their children,
They love their children truly, and in same time, they do things for them because they love them,
Its circular
You have good heart => do material things for Gods => that only one with good heart can do
Its a circle
️
One can do good actions accidently or for ego not from good heart, or opposite, this is true but low, and i will not descend there,
Different stages of advancement requires different definitions,
I talk about the good heart and the material things being 1
Instead of two separate things.
The good heart being a background to the act, instead of using one to cover the lack of the other,
So when one claims love for the Gods, this should be then backed with actions.
The same way the Gods say they love us, and they do action, if the Gods themselves do that, why should we not do it,
Why the Gods do not ignore us completely, and we should do their rituals and keep honoring them while getting 0 help, just because They have a good heart?
This is new age mentality,
Good heart and actions are 1.
Contrary to many think, love is proven through beautiful actions and also through suffering adversities of life, in fact those are the higher forms of love
The Good heart you are talking about and that you say the Gods value
Is shown when heroic material action is being taken and one is facing harsh situations, for the sake of aligning with divinity.
THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE HEART YOU SAY GODS VALUE IS THROUGH ACTIONS, ITS CIRCULAR THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE FIRST IS THROUGH THE SECOND.
I see the love of a mother animal more in how fierce she defends the child rather than when she feeds him.
That being said i see no higher form of love than expressing it through actions.
The same of what the Gods do to us.
[But again, this will be different for everyone. Someone might have an intricate, gigantic altar, while someone might choose not to have that, and the first is not necessarily more dedicated than the latter just because of that alone.]
First, formality is not only about altars, formality, reverence and offerings can manifest in very different forms, its not about altar, and it can also be about it, however what i am expressing is not limited to that.
I never ever seen a culture when one goes to Gods only with his mind,
Never ever seen this, cannot even have a candle ? Not even a flower?
Give me 1 culture where they go to Gods casually bringing only their mind.
Even when going to university to pass a test, that is literally about the mind, one still dress well, have good hygiene, puts some perfume, have a good haircut etc..
On top of that, one follows a formality,
Talks to his teachers in a formal way,
Will not fart loudly during exam,
So there is a protocol,
If one follows a protocol in school, that involves humans, and then the same person who understands protocols in all aspects of life when comes to Gods overlook it, know that the Gods see that,
Even Muslims have a protocol to follow in the mosque, and a protocol when talking to Allah. That is not even true,
We cannot when coming to the true Gods, that are real, start pulling the card of philosophy: BuT yOu ArE GreAt aNd YoU vAlUe a GooD HeArt
حق اريد به باطل
You cannot bypass basic respect by claiming the Gods have a heart.
["Not necessary" also doesn't mean not valuable, or not important. If you feel like you should express your devotion and involve the Gods in your life through altars, incense, and other ceremonial (that's just what they are) elements, that is a very good thing to do and you will be blessed for it.]
I search in my own culture, they all claim at least a candle, few olives and such. Never seen someone say less than a candle and such.
I really do not understand the entitlement of ´not necessary’, literally a God will get present and find nothing, because he is great, and because you have a good heart,
Be honest if an emperor comes visit you, because he likes you being honest and having a good heart, and want to assist you, will you not have even a dinner set up for him?
At least that and a gift or whatever,
Then if one cannot fail to do so with an Emperor,
how come he fails to do it with Gods that are exponentially higher than this Emperor himself?
Even more than that, if the person really can, but because he sees that the God engage, start thinking ´wait, the Gods do get present, let me leave the room messy, wait it is said its ok not to take a bath, so not necessary ´
One even meeting his girlfriend takes a bath, and meeting a God he starts acting like if a single candle is hard to get,
[What the Gods want is not necessarily offerings. ]
What do you mean ?
And whats that loophole of ´not necessarily ´, you over use it,
Literally the High Priests always said that when doing agreements we should give offerings,
And literally said that we should not break agreement,
The Gods are kind and great and offering not necessary, so why is it necessary to fulfill?
the Gods love to see us advanced and that they love us doing offerings, one of the benefits of offering is deepening the relation,
What do you mean the Gods do not want necessarily offerings?
You are projecting on Gods and thinking the same way muslims do, you cannot start speculating and attributing things to Gods, based on your assumptions,
The Gods do have a personality, the Gods like and dislike things,
Lets respect that, and approach the GODS THE WAY THEY WANT
THE WAY THEY WANT
Not the way we start speculating that they want,
Very big difference,
[They do not lack anything, by definition.]
True but misused.
Ok the new age things,
Your Gods are powerful they lack nothing,
This only results in entitlement,
This also hints at a very low understanding of how things generally works,
If an emperor comes visit you, you give him a small gift and he likes it, or you pay for him the dinner, did he need it ? Does he lack money? And why did he like it ?
We operate here at high levels, its not about lack, its about greatness nobility high ethics and high standards,
The Gods lack nothing does not mean i wont do something for them,
We do not operate under lack,
This is a big advanced concept,
Past a level, its not about lacking, past a level nobody lacks in the sense of truly lacking,
Past a level its about refining and going up, nothing to do with lack, in fact this becomes more noble, when one lacks nothing and is doing thing,
I will give an example so that you understand since that concept is important,
If a child from my family, makes a drawing for me, and shows me the drawing, will i love it or not? Or course yes,
Is it because i lack attention?
You are linking appreciating certain actions with lacking something, thats false.
We can operate from abundance, and do things from that paradigm,
That being said, the Gods do not lack,
But that is irrelevant, to the fact that we need to do things for them.
[What they want is our connection to them, our yearning for them, our union with them.]
First union with them and yearning and connection all those are enhanced by offerings. You are rejecting offerings i do not understand why,
Thats new age again, yearning how? Wishful thinking? Thats jesus loves you mentality
["Neither by the scriptures, nor by asceticism, nor by gifts, nor by sacrifices can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. But by undivided devotion alone can I truly be known, seen, and entered into."
- Bhagavad Gita 11]
Thank you for bringing proof to what i said, proving that there is always an element of grace, look what i said:
THE POINT IS NOT HOW TO TRIGGER GRACE.
And its not about how to see the Gods.
Which the passage of the scripture adresses.
My point is about honoring the Gods.
the whole thing i said, its because what the God do is out of grace, so its good to do actions to honor them, and do things for them, to thank them for that, and to honor their nobility, instead of saying:
Listen, you know Bhagavad Gita, Krishna said its not by gifts etc….
So no altar, no offerings, nothing, just wait for the God to show up.
Its not like this,
Its completly opposite,
GRACE IS TO BE MET WITH REVERENCE
Thats my point
When reading a scripture, or when reading a spiritual text, keep in mind complexity of the matter , do not read and take the phrase literally,
Add to all the above, that what krishna says :
[Whoever offers to Me with devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or some water, I accept this offering made with devotion by one who is pure of heart.]
This my OWN understanding,
goes deeper than what is usually understood, i feel, and speculate ( can be wrong ) this line is actually encouraging offering,
For a God to lower the entry barrier to offerings, this is encouraging offerings rather than a loophole one can use to offer nothing.
Meditate on this 2min.
If krishna says bring me even water or even a leaf, and you come with nothing thats a problem, i do not see that personally normal.
To read this and use it to overlook offerings in my opinion is missing the mark,
If he wanted to say bring nothing he would have said it, i do not mean the Gods force people to give offerings, i explained what i meant above the complexity of subject invites taking my whole points as one, not one by one, to get most of the aspects, but there are for sure other aspects to this. I still have arguments in my arsenal.
And its not good that after all clergy sermons you are saying : Gods are great => Gods do not need offering.
You really do not understand the Gods.
With same logic : Gods are great, why the Gods not just simply manifest physically and exercise their will?
You really do not understand the depth of the matter.
Disclaimer : following can be wrong and has nothing to do with ToZ, those are just my personal opinions, i am new member , i by consequence carry many impurities and false understandings, some of them may be included in this message, so i am open for correction. English is my 3rd or even 4th language so there may be mistakes due the translation of thoughts.
For all the good things in whats below i give the credit to God Zeus and all the Gods
and for the bad things and shortcomings i take credit.the following in an offering to Gods, considering it may encourage Zevists to take formality more seriously and approach the Gods with more reverence.
The following is not fully about you even when i use the word ´you ´, its just way of talking, and i have to use your reply, to go in depth in the subject, because i believe the Gods do Great things for us,
and then many start thanking them by removing formality and believing its all about the mind, and taking the Gods grace for granted, attributing results and success to ego,
May the following, convince readers, to take formality more seriously, and treat the Gods with more reverence, this is an act of acknowledgment of their Highness. Thus of itself an act of devotion and worship.
You do spiritual intellectual bypassing, you cite something, tell is true, and then add a ´but’ that undermines the previous point, that ´you ´ stated like if it is obvious, this undermines the thing in indirect way.
You need to make a difference between theory, philosophy, understanding, experience, relative reality, reality, supreme reality, and more.
The Gods are complex, and giving them a positive attribute does not bind them to the action expected of that attribute, this you need to grasp,
For example, i cannot say: The Gods are Generous and Powerful, i pray for X amount of money to be sitting in my bank tomorow,
If it does not happen you will tell me you need to work,
But i thought the Gods are Powerful? And generous? And no one in the world exceed them in power. So ?
Then you will start telling me : no but you need to know this and this, and you will start adding layers to the concept, you will not stop at the simplistic view you are talking from now, ´oh but the Gods are great.’
Because reality is complex, one side of the matter is not enough,
The thing is, you should keep the complex reality and their transcendent nature both in your mind,
At all times, not only when the doctrine in challenged, thus you are forced to add layers to the matter.
[Gods care about our heart, more than material things.]
All the action we do, to please the Gods, is material. Everyday, there is action to be done , Your phrase is what is called in arabic:
حق اريد به باطل
It means something true, but is misleading.
( i am Pushing members to do thing for Gods and you say true heart matters more, this literally sabotages my idea, so its true but the use makes it false and its also completely false from a higher perspective , explained in this message]
It reads like if , LeTs HaVe GoOD HeaRts, this is new age things, and Jesus mentality.
The Gods do not value ´Good hearts’ over ´material actions’ in the literal sense,
Those are two different matters, judged separately if you want to look at it from High consciousness,
On top of this, the two are interconnected,
To have a good heart is to be materially involved.
And to be materially involved is to have a good heart,
This is the supreme understanding,
When parents do many things for their children, and in the same time love their children,
They love their children truly, and in same time, they do things for them because they love them,
Its circular
You have good heart => do material things for Gods => that only one with good heart can do
Its a circle
️ One can do good actions accidently or for ego not from good heart, or opposite, this is true but low, and i will not descend there,
Different stages of advancement requires different definitions,
I talk about the good heart and the material things being 1
Instead of two separate things.
The good heart being a background to the act, instead of using one to cover the lack of the other,
So when one claims love for the Gods, this should be then backed with actions.
The same way the Gods say they love us, and they do action, if the Gods themselves do that, why should we not do it,
Why the Gods do not ignore us completely, and we should do their rituals and keep honoring them while getting 0 help, just because They have a good heart?
This is new age mentality,
Good heart and actions are 1.
Contrary to many think, love is proven through beautiful actions and also through suffering adversities of life, in fact those are the higher forms of love
The Good heart you are talking about and that you say the Gods value
Is shown when heroic material action is being taken and one is facing harsh situations, for the sake of aligning with divinity.
THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE HEART YOU SAY GODS VALUE IS THROUGH ACTIONS, ITS CIRCULAR THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE FIRST IS THROUGH THE SECOND.
I see the love of a mother animal more in how fierce she defends the child rather than when she feeds him.
That being said i see no higher form of love than expressing it through actions.
The same of what the Gods do to us.
[But again, this will be different for everyone. Someone might have an intricate, gigantic altar, while someone might choose not to have that, and the first is not necessarily more dedicated than the latter just because of that alone.]
First, formality is not only about altars, formality, reverence and offerings can manifest in very different forms, its not about altar, and it can also be about it, however what i am expressing is not limited to that.
I never ever seen a culture when one goes to Gods only with his mind,
Never ever seen this, cannot even have a candle ? Not even a flower?
Give me 1 culture where they go to Gods casually bringing only their mind.
Even when going to university to pass a test, that is literally about the mind, one still dress well, have good hygiene, puts some perfume, have a good haircut etc..
On top of that, one follows a formality,
Talks to his teachers in a formal way,
Will not fart loudly during exam,
So there is a protocol,
If one follows a protocol in school, that involves humans, and then the same person who understands protocols in all aspects of life when comes to Gods overlook it, know that the Gods see that,
Even Muslims have a protocol to follow in the mosque, and a protocol when talking to Allah. That is not even true,
We cannot when coming to the true Gods, that are real, start pulling the card of philosophy: BuT yOu ArE GreAt aNd YoU vAlUe a GooD HeArt
حق اريد به باطل
You cannot bypass basic respect by claiming the Gods have a heart.
["Not necessary" also doesn't mean not valuable, or not important. If you feel like you should express your devotion and involve the Gods in your life through altars, incense, and other ceremonial (that's just what they are) elements, that is a very good thing to do and you will be blessed for it.]
I search in my own culture, they all claim at least a candle, few olives and such. Never seen someone say less than a candle and such.
I really do not understand the entitlement of ´not necessary’, literally a God will get present and find nothing, because he is great, and because you have a good heart,
Be honest if an emperor comes visit you, because he likes you being honest and having a good heart, and want to assist you, will you not have even a dinner set up for him?
At least that and a gift or whatever,
Then if one cannot fail to do so with an Emperor,
how come he fails to do it with Gods that are exponentially higher than this Emperor himself?
Even more than that, if the person really can, but because he sees that the God engage, start thinking ´wait, the Gods do get present, let me leave the room messy, wait it is said its ok not to take a bath, so not necessary ´
One even meeting his girlfriend takes a bath, and meeting a God he starts acting like if a single candle is hard to get,
[What the Gods want is not necessarily offerings. ]
What do you mean ?
And whats that loophole of ´not necessarily ´, you over use it,
Literally the High Priests always said that when doing agreements we should give offerings,
And literally said that we should not break agreement,
The Gods are kind and great and offering not necessary, so why is it necessary to fulfill?
the Gods love to see us advanced and that they love us doing offerings, one of the benefits of offering is deepening the relation,
What do you mean the Gods do not want necessarily offerings?
You are projecting on Gods and thinking the same way muslims do, you cannot start speculating and attributing things to Gods, based on your assumptions,
The Gods do have a personality, the Gods like and dislike things,
Lets respect that, and approach the GODS THE WAY THEY WANT
THE WAY THEY WANT
Not the way we start speculating that they want,
Very big difference,
[They do not lack anything, by definition.]
True but misused.
Ok the new age things,
Your Gods are powerful they lack nothing,
This only results in entitlement,
This also hints at a very low understanding of how things generally works,
If an emperor comes visit you, you give him a small gift and he likes it, or you pay for him the dinner, did he need it ? Does he lack money? And why did he like it ?
We operate here at high levels, its not about lack, its about greatness nobility high ethics and high standards,
The Gods lack nothing does not mean i wont do something for them,
We do not operate under lack,
This is a big advanced concept,
Past a level, its not about lacking, past a level nobody lacks in the sense of truly lacking,
Past a level its about refining and going up, nothing to do with lack, in fact this becomes more noble, when one lacks nothing and is doing thing,
I will give an example so that you understand since that concept is important,
If a child from my family, makes a drawing for me, and shows me the drawing, will i love it or not? Or course yes,
Is it because i lack attention?
You are linking appreciating certain actions with lacking something, thats false.
We can operate from abundance, and do things from that paradigm,
That being said, the Gods do not lack,
But that is irrelevant, to the fact that we need to do things for them.
[What they want is our connection to them, our yearning for them, our union with them.]
First union with them and yearning and connection all those are enhanced by offerings. You are rejecting offerings i do not understand why,
Thats new age again, yearning how? Wishful thinking? Thats jesus loves you mentality
["Neither by the scriptures, nor by asceticism, nor by gifts, nor by sacrifices can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. But by undivided devotion alone can I truly be known, seen, and entered into."
- Bhagavad Gita 11]
Thank you for bringing proof to what i said, proving that there is always an element of grace, look what i said:
The grace the Gods give, should be honored, thats my point
THE POINT IS NOT HOW TO TRIGGER GRACE.
And its not about how to see the Gods.
Which the passage of the scripture adresses.
My point is about honoring the Gods.
the whole thing i said, its because what the God do is out of grace, so its good to do actions to honor them, and do things for them, to thank them for that, and to honor their nobility, instead of saying:
Listen, you know Bhagavad Gita, Krishna said its not by gifts etc….
So no altar, no offerings, nothing, just wait for the God to show up.
Its not like this,
Its completly opposite,
GRACE IS TO BE MET WITH REVERENCE
Thats my point
When reading a scripture, or when reading a spiritual text, keep in mind complexity of the matter , do not read and take the phrase literally,
Add to all the above, that what krishna says :
[Whoever offers to Me with devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or some water, I accept this offering made with devotion by one who is pure of heart.]
This my OWN understanding,
goes deeper than what is usually understood, i feel, and speculate ( can be wrong ) this line is actually encouraging offering,
For a God to lower the entry barrier to offerings, this is encouraging offerings rather than a loophole one can use to offer nothing.
Meditate on this 2min.
If krishna says bring me even water or even a leaf, and you come with nothing thats a problem, i do not see that personally normal.
To read this and use it to overlook offerings in my opinion is missing the mark,
If he wanted to say bring nothing he would have said it, i do not mean the Gods force people to give offerings, i explained what i meant above the complexity of subject invites taking my whole points as one, not one by one, to get most of the aspects, but there are for sure other aspects to this. I still have arguments in my arsenal.
The Gods do not want ‘our good heart’, this will be controversial, i am not saying its true, its bot opinion of ToZ, this is pure speculation,
The Gods do not want our heart and the heart is not the highest expression of love,
A person can love today the Gods and tomorrow feels neutral towards the Gods, or even take everything for granted and start to develop an ego and lose the grip on the love.
I truly believe the Gods are more into the whole. Character of a person,
More than a feeling of love or whatever fleeting bullshit.
One in deep hardships because of trying to channel Gods will may not be in that moment in a state of love, but his state is love itself, not felt but expressed.
This reminds me of muslims, who claim to want to make people enter heavens, while in same time in the earth cannot even give charity, how can you claim you want heaven for others ? Bit they truly inside themselves wish heaven.
Thats just ignorance not love, from my point of view. Love is truly complex, not a simple emotion.
The Gods do not want our heart and the heart is not the highest expression of love,
A person can love today the Gods and tomorrow feels neutral towards the Gods, or even take everything for granted and start to develop an ego and lose the grip on the love.
I truly believe the Gods are more into the whole. Character of a person,
More than a feeling of love or whatever fleeting bullshit.
One in deep hardships because of trying to channel Gods will may not be in that moment in a state of love, but his state is love itself, not felt but expressed.
This reminds me of muslims, who claim to want to make people enter heavens, while in same time in the earth cannot even give charity, how can you claim you want heaven for others ? Bit they truly inside themselves wish heaven.
Thats just ignorance not love, from my point of view. Love is truly complex, not a simple emotion.
Since you love bhagavad gita,
Check this:
[Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, whatever austerity you perform do that as an offering unto Me]
wotan namah
Member
I agree if you are giving an offering too the Gods you should do your best and give them something they deserve and that shows respect and reverance. I think the comment about just offering them 3 peanuts (or whatever I am not reading through all the comments to find that one again was out of line) they deserve better than that and I doubt they were actually happy. Give something from the heart and have reverence. I also think formality should be encouraged so I don't disagree with you. It was also stated before that you can also offer to do something for the Gods like spread the truth somewhere online or do spiritual warfare or something for the specific God you want to honor or give an offering too. There are a lot of types of offerings you can give. I think you should do more than the bare minimum you can or something that is insulting like the peanuts.You do not understand the Gods. Literally.
And its not good that after all clergy sermons you are saying : Gods are great => Gods do not need offering.
You really do not understand the Gods.
With same logic : Gods are great, why the Gods not just simply manifest physically and exercise their will?
You really do not understand the depth of the matter.
Disclaimer : following can be wrong and has nothing to do with ToZ, those are just my personal opinions, i am new member , i by consequence carry many impurities and false understandings, some of them may be included in this message, so i am open for correction. English is my 3rd or even 4th language so there may be mistakes due the translation of thoughts.
For all the good things in whats below i give the credit to God Zeus and all the Gods
the following in an offering to Gods, considering it may encourage Zevists to take formality more seriously and approach the Gods with more reverence.
The following is not fully about you even when i use the word ´you ´, its just way of talking, and i have to use your reply, to go in depth in the subject, because i believe the Gods do Great things for us,
and then many start thanking them by removing formality and believing its all about the mind, and taking the Gods grace for granted, attributing results and success to ego,
May the following, convince readers, to take formality more seriously, and treat the Gods with more reverence, this is an act of acknowledgment of their Highness. Thus of itself an act of devotion and worship.
You do spiritual intellectual bypassing, you cite something, tell is true, and then add a ´but’ that undermines the previous point, that ´you ´ stated like if it is obvious, this undermines the thing in indirect way.
You need to make a difference between theory, philosophy, understanding, experience, relative reality, reality, supreme reality, and more.
The Gods are complex, and giving them a positive attribute does not bind them to the action expected of that attribute, this you need to grasp,
For example, i cannot say: The Gods are Generous and Powerful, i pray for X amount of money to be sitting in my bank tomorow,
If it does not happen you will tell me you need to work,
But i thought the Gods are Powerful? And generous? And no one in the world exceed them in power. So ?
Then you will start telling me : no but you need to know this and this, and you will start adding layers to the concept, you will not stop at the simplistic view you are talking from now, ´oh but the Gods are great.’
Because reality is complex, one side of the matter is not enough,
The thing is, you should keep the complex reality and their transcendent nature both in your mind,
At all times, not only when the doctrine in challenged, thus you are forced to add layers to the matter.
[Gods care about our heart, more than material things.]
All the action we do, to please the Gods, is material. Everyday, there is action to be done , Your phrase is what is called in arabic:
حق اريد به باطل
It means something true, but is misleading.
( i am Pushing members to do thing for Gods and you say true heart matters more, this literally sabotages my idea, so its true but the use makes it false and its also completely false from a higher perspective , explained in this message]
It reads like if , LeTs HaVe GoOD HeaRts, this is new age things, and Jesus mentality.
The Gods do not value ´Good hearts’ over ´material actions’ in the literal sense,
Those are two different matters, judged separately if you want to look at it from High consciousness,
On top of this, the two are interconnected,
To have a good heart is to be materially involved.
And to be materially involved is to have a good heart,
This is the supreme understanding,
When parents do many things for their children, and in the same time love their children,
They love their children truly, and in same time, they do things for them because they love them,
Its circular
You have good heart => do material things for Gods => that only one with good heart can do
Its a circle
One can do good actions accidently or for ego not from good heart, or opposite, this is true but low, and i will not descend there,
Different stages of advancement requires different definitions,
I talk about the good heart and the material things being 1
Instead of two separate things.
The good heart being a background to the act, instead of using one to cover the lack of the other,
So when one claims love for the Gods, this should be then backed with actions.
The same way the Gods say they love us, and they do action, if the Gods themselves do that, why should we not do it,
Why the Gods do not ignore us completely, and we should do their rituals and keep honoring them while getting 0 help, just because They have a good heart?
This is new age mentality,
Good heart and actions are 1.
Contrary to many think, love is proven through beautiful actions and also through suffering adversities of life, in fact those are the higher forms of love
The Good heart you are talking about and that you say the Gods value
Is shown when heroic material action is being taken and one is facing harsh situations, for the sake of aligning with divinity.
THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE HEART YOU SAY GODS VALUE IS THROUGH ACTIONS, ITS CIRCULAR THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF THE FIRST IS THROUGH THE SECOND.
I see the love of a mother animal more in how fierce she defends the child rather than when she feeds him.
That being said i see no higher form of love than expressing it through actions.
The same of what the Gods do to us.
[But again, this will be different for everyone. Someone might have an intricate, gigantic altar, while someone might choose not to have that, and the first is not necessarily more dedicated than the latter just because of that alone.]
First, formality is not only about altars, formality, reverence and offerings can manifest in very different forms, its not about altar, and it can also be about it, however what i am expressing is not limited to that.
I never ever seen a culture when one goes to Gods only with his mind,
Never ever seen this, cannot even have a candle ? Not even a flower?
Give me 1 culture where they go to Gods casually bringing only their mind.
Even when going to university to pass a test, that is literally about the mind, one still dress well, have good hygiene, puts some perfume, have a good haircut etc..
On top of that, one follows a formality,
Talks to his teachers in a formal way,
Will not fart loudly during exam,
So there is a protocol,
If one follows a protocol in school, that involves humans, and then the same person who understands protocols in all aspects of life when comes to Gods overlook it, know that the Gods see that,
Even Muslims have a protocol to follow in the mosque, and a protocol when talking to Allah. That is not even true,
We cannot when coming to the true Gods, that are real, start pulling the card of philosophy: BuT yOu ArE GreAt aNd YoU vAlUe a GooD HeArt
حق اريد به باطل
You cannot bypass basic respect by claiming the Gods have a heart.
["Not necessary" also doesn't mean not valuable, or not important. If you feel like you should express your devotion and involve the Gods in your life through altars, incense, and other ceremonial (that's just what they are) elements, that is a very good thing to do and you will be blessed for it.]
I search in my own culture, they all claim at least a candle, few olives and such. Never seen someone say less than a candle and such.
I really do not understand the entitlement of ´not necessary’, literally a God will get present and find nothing, because he is great, and because you have a good heart,
Be honest if an emperor comes visit you, because he likes you being honest and having a good heart, and want to assist you, will you not have even a dinner set up for him?
At least that and a gift or whatever,
Then if one cannot fail to do so with an Emperor,
how come he fails to do it with Gods that are exponentially higher than this Emperor himself?
Even more than that, if the person really can, but because he sees that the God engage, start thinking ´wait, the Gods do get present, let me leave the room messy, wait it is said its ok not to take a bath, so not necessary ´
One even meeting his girlfriend takes a bath, and meeting a God he starts acting like if a single candle is hard to get,
[What the Gods want is not necessarily offerings. ]
What do you mean ?
And whats that loophole of ´not necessarily ´, you over use it,
Literally the High Priests always said that when doing agreements we should give offerings,
And literally said that we should not break agreement,
The Gods are kind and great and offering not necessary, so why is it necessary to fulfill?
the Gods love to see us advanced and that they love us doing offerings, one of the benefits of offering is deepening the relation,
What do you mean the Gods do not want necessarily offerings?
You are projecting on Gods and thinking the same way muslims do, you cannot start speculating and attributing things to Gods, based on your assumptions,
The Gods do have a personality, the Gods like and dislike things,
Lets respect that, and approach the GODS THE WAY THEY WANT
THE WAY THEY WANT
Not the way we start speculating that they want,
Very big difference,
[They do not lack anything, by definition.]
True but misused.
Ok the new age things,
Your Gods are powerful they lack nothing,
This only results in entitlement,
This also hints at a very low understanding of how things generally works,
If an emperor comes visit you, you give him a small gift and he likes it, or you pay for him the dinner, did he need it ? Does he lack money? And why did he like it ?
We operate here at high levels, its not about lack, its about greatness nobility high ethics and high standards,
The Gods lack nothing does not mean i wont do something for them,
We do not operate under lack,
This is a big advanced concept,
Past a level, its not about lacking, past a level nobody lacks in the sense of truly lacking,
Past a level its about refining and going up, nothing to do with lack, in fact this becomes more noble, when one lacks nothing and is doing thing,
I will give an example so that you understand since that concept is important,
If a child from my family, makes a drawing for me, and shows me the drawing, will i love it or not? Or course yes,
Is it because i lack attention?
You are linking appreciating certain actions with lacking something, thats false.
We can operate from abundance, and do things from that paradigm,
That being said, the Gods do not lack,
But that is irrelevant, to the fact that we need to do things for them.
[What they want is our connection to them, our yearning for them, our union with them.]
First union with them and yearning and connection all those are enhanced by offerings. You are rejecting offerings i do not understand why,
Thats new age again, yearning how? Wishful thinking? Thats jesus loves you mentality
["Neither by the scriptures, nor by asceticism, nor by gifts, nor by sacrifices can I be seen in this form as you have seen Me. But by undivided devotion alone can I truly be known, seen, and entered into."
- Bhagavad Gita 11]
Thank you for bringing proof to what i said, proving that there is always an element of grace, look what i said:
The grace the Gods give, should be honored, thats my point
THE POINT IS NOT HOW TO TRIGGER GRACE.
And its not about how to see the Gods.
Which the passage of the scripture adresses.
My point is about honoring the Gods.
the whole thing i said, its because what the God do is out of grace, so its good to do actions to honor them, and do things for them, to thank them for that, and to honor their nobility, instead of saying:
Listen, you know Bhagavad Gita, Krishna said its not by gifts etc….
So no altar, no offerings, nothing, just wait for the God to show up.
Its not like this,
Its completly opposite,
GRACE IS TO BE MET WITH REVERENCE
Thats my point
When reading a scripture, or when reading a spiritual text, keep in mind complexity of the matter , do not read and take the phrase literally,
Add to all the above, that what krishna says :
[Whoever offers to Me with devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or some water, I accept this offering made with devotion by one who is pure of heart.]
This my OWN understanding,
goes deeper than what is usually understood, i feel, and speculate ( can be wrong ) this line is actually encouraging offering,
For a God to lower the entry barrier to offerings, this is encouraging offerings rather than a loophole one can use to offer nothing.
Meditate on this 2min.
If krishna says bring me even water or even a leaf, and you come with nothing thats a problem, i do not see that personally normal.
To read this and use it to overlook offerings in my opinion is missing the mark,
If he wanted to say bring nothing he would have said it, i do not mean the Gods force people to give offerings, i explained what i meant above the complexity of subject invites taking my whole points as one, not one by one, to get most of the aspects, but there are for sure other aspects to this. I still have arguments in my arsenal.
I just don't think that having props is absolutely necessary if you can't access something for some reason and don't have it. Substitutions I believe are ok like the diffuser in that case you really are doing your best and it does basically the same thing make the space smell nice.
Thank you, the problem is that in the place I live in, no matter how much I pay, some products are still fake and just sold as original. I bought so many incense sticks but I never liked even a single one of them and it didn't feel right to use them in rituals. Same with the candles. I had to make my own candles to make sure the quality is high and they smell well.
I don't know what is this argument about, I guess didn't say anything bad so it's not about me. Again the reason I can not provide some things isn't because I want to slack off or be lazy. It's because in the place where I live a lot of things are sold as original but they are actually low quality and fake. That is why I have the whole problem with incense. When I say I can't do something, I mean it in a very literal sense according to my circumstances. I always want to try my best for the Gods.
It was not about you
You missed my point,
You cannot tell the Gods how to react to a specific offering, the experience is personal.
Think whatever you want, it’s irrelevant, if the one decides to offer something to the Gods to honor them,
The reaction of Gods is independent to what you think.
This is personal,
And the Gods should be approached in a way they like, not a way one think they like.
Big difference.
My whole point is about honoring the Gods. I think everyone agree with this, and everyone should do more efforts.
Formality is not only about offerings, there are many aspects to this.
